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Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion: A Response

Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:20 AM EDT
religion, faith, god, atheism, richard-dawkins, channel-4, god-delusion, professor-dawkins, more-4, just4theplanet
By just4theplanet
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As a professional magician /mentalist and trained historian I must say I agree with Richard Dawkins desire that we find as much evidence as we can to justify our belief system. Like biologists ,the majority of people in my profession tend to have an atheistic outlook –one need only read Derren Browns comments about The God Delusion being his “favourite book of all time”. I am writing this piece as a response to Professor Dawkins programme on Channel 4’s More4– which is based on his best selling book and which our rather unctuous magic man Derren found so enlightening.

Despite his lack of reading, Derren Brown, like myself will tell you that magicians and mentalists depend on the human ability to suspend their disbelief. In other words people enjoy a good magic trick – “believing” in the magic – while it is being performed. Of course they will later say how much they enjoyed the “trick” – even though we all know there is no such thing as magic.

Richard Dawkins believes that people of faith live their whole lives like this. Because there is no such thing as God –these people are by definition deluded – they must really know the truth (atheism) – but are suspending their disbelief in God. They are therefore living in ignorance.

If I were an atheist I think I would be looking for another spokesperson to profess my ideas. Professor Dawkins piece was very unconvincing. Indeed at times I was a little embarrassed for one of the UK’s top scientists – who tried to back up his belief (yes atheism is a belief) by talking to a believer who thinks it would be acceptable to execute an adulterer, interview American creationist fundamentalists (who believe the earth is about 5000 years old) and showing pictures of the Catholic faithful at Lourdes – adding that this is the beginning of the slippery slope to suicide bombs on the London tube!

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that our good professor never tires of setting up straw men only to dismantle them with great relish. These repeated mischaracterisations of faith do the atheist camp no favours. All it does is betray a vitriolic personal agenda. I dislike American Christian fundamentalists for the same reason I dislike Richard Dawkins. He is more interested in proselytising his militant atheism – rather than relying on the rational arguments he claims to cherish.

According to Dawkins religion is “anti-rational” – faith is “blind trust” in the absence of evidence. This does not describe my faith – or the faith of any serious believer .While rational argument will not prove Gods existence – serious thinkers from Aristotle and Kant to Descartes and Whitehead and Francis Collins (A biologist who headed the genome project) – have demonstrated that belief in God is very plausible. It is easy and disingenuous to say the least – to put forward a caricature of faith – for it is not real faith at all.

I started this piece with Dawkins insistence that we need evidence. The major flaw of his claim that science demands atheism is that it goes beyond the evidence. By definition God is “supernatural” – i.e. beyond nature – science can neither prove nor disprove His existence. Good scientists know this – including the multitude of scientists (40%) who believe in a Creator God. No doubt these scientists are also deluded ignoramuses

One wonders whether Professor Dawkins is appealing to people’s intelligence or their ignorance. He talks about children being indoctrinated by faith with a debate that could be seen in a GCSE class. He suggests that people are cajoled into staying in their religion. One can just imagine the Church of England Vicar with the recalcitrant teenager “listen Jesus was cool – but if you want to be an atheist –let’s talk about it over a cup of tea and slice of cake”

Dawkins also suggests that atheists are somehow persecuted or misunderstood – even discriminated against. This is a ridiculous suggestion – as academia has been dominated by philosophical naturalism (atheism) for most of the twentieth century largely as a result of the influence of Marxist ideas. Indeed for much of that century half the world was officially atheist – under Communist regimes. I think Richard Dawkins has taken up his fundamentalist atheist crusade because many in the atheist camp (myself included) have moved -and are moving to the Theist camp- including Britain’s most famous atheist – Anthony Flew. The God Delusion is simply a desperate attempt to shore up atheism’s crumbling defences. It is becoming apparent to many intelligent people that a scientific materialist account of everything does not constitute the whole story. Throughout the 20th century a naturalist assumption has been integral to western culture – especially academia. I would argue that it is a fundamental error to see such assumptions as necessarily true. Wisdom begins in wonder – and it increases when we become aware of our pre-suppositions and question them.

Professor Dawkins suggests that believers have an intractable, arrogant idea that they know everything. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although we have inklings of God – in the end God is ultimate mystery. He is awesome by His very nature. An essential component of the spiritual is the experience of wonder. Wasn’t it Einstein who said that the most fundamental mystery about existence is existence itself? He also said that science without religion is lame.

The God delusion has helped to perpetuate two major modern myths. First that religion and science contradict each other. In fact science is a western development precisely because of its Judeo Christian tradition of Theism. People like Isaac Newton sought to understand the “Laws” of nature put into existence by a Creator/Lawgiver. The second myth is that Theists are unthinking drones. If Aristotle, Augustine, Plotinus, Aquinas, Descartes, Kant, Einstein and Collins and thousands of other genius’s are unthinking drones -this would make Richard Dawkins intelligence amoeba like.

Professor Dawkins obviously is a proponent of the scientific method. He is always asking for the “evidence”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The scientific method is sound – but it is not the only route to knowledge. And so we are forced to say that the Professor may be a good scientist – he is however a second rate thinker.

Knowledge comes in two forms – either a posterior (a statement whose truth is based on observation and “evidence”) – also known as inductive reasoning –or a –priori (a statement that is necessarily true, requiring no verification by experience – it is true or false by virtue of the meaning of the words or the laws of logic). This is deductive reasoning. I would like to ask the professor – if science is solely about evidence and hard “facts” – how come mathematics is based upon deductive reasoning – and most science is based on mathematics? After all when the first Apollo spacecraft went to the moon and back – the astronauts were relying on the fact that everything had been worked out in the heads of scientists before it happened in reality. And while we are at it – what is a quark? Is it “real” – or is it a mathematical concept? Does time really stop at the speed of light? How do sub atomic particles “know” what other particles are doing billions of miles away? What is dark matter and dark energy? Apparently these are very real – even though no one has seen them.

I could go on – and I know that these areas in science are usually tackled by physicists and may make super biologist Dawkins uncomfortable. Well I believe he should stick to his biology – because his philosophy and his ability to craft a decent argument is awful. Richard Dawkins is so adamant that Reason is the only way to look at the world – and that it has no room for faith. Oh dear – how misguided can you be? All knowledge, scientific or otherwise, depends on the validity of reasoning – without it no science is true. But I’m afraid strict materialism (and the atheism that goes with it) refutes itself. If thoughts are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true …..and hence no reason to suppose that my brain be composed of atoms.

Philosophical Naturalism/Atheism tries to offer an account of thought – but this account leaves no room for the acts of knowing and insight (used by scientists and everyone else) on which the whole value of our thinking – as a means to truth – depends. And so human Reason itself – the concept that Richard Dawkins claims is the cornerstone of atheism – is in a very real sense supernatural. Not in a “spooky” – or even “spiritual” way – more like in the sense that it won’t fit into nature. Thinking and insight is knowledge sufficiently free from “nature” to be determined only by the truth it knows. Give this up and you give up nature also.

So – I will finish this piece by re iterating that I believe Channel 4: More 4’s programme -The God Delusion- has done the atheist camp no favours whatsoever. Professor Dawkins failed to put forward an intelligent case for militant atheism. But he did try –God bless him- and next time I am celebrating mass I will light a candle for him.

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Paddy Ryan

The scientific method is sound – but it is not the only route to knowledge.

Enjoyed your article.

Cheers, Paddy

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:02 AM EDT
landspirit

Superb article. Beautifully written. I agree with so many of your points. The belief that science and religion are two separate things is very destructive. What was believed as magic, thousands of years ago is now a scientifically understood reality. It is by knowledge we gain the understanding of God. People that attack science are really only exposing their own lack of faith. They fear God does not exist, so they must attack anything that seems to suggest he does not. They do not see the sad folly of their thought: if God created the universe, how could gaining the understanding and knowledge to explain how and what undermine God? It would only lead to understanding God.

There is so much we yet do not understand: knowledge that lies still hidden by time waiting for us to find it or develop the technology to see it. We can describe things only by what we know and have known. In Biblical times, there was comparatively extremely little knowledge or understanding. Hence, they described and wrote using the ideology and understanding of the times. What we do not understand now or may see as mystical may soon be common knowledge. When religion attacks science it does so out of fear and out of the desire to control people.

For myself, I know there is a God. I have a sense of what he is. However, I can only describe based on the knowledge of our times. If I had not had the experiences I have had in my life, I would be likely leaning toward being agnostic. Even knowing there is a God leaves me baffled and with more questions than before. Answers lie in the future. They may not be mine to ever see.

And beyond doubt, childhood experiences do create a strong tendencyto slip into the patterns taught. I was raised steeped in Christianity. It is amazing how much influence that interjects into your later adult conceptions.

    #1.1 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:01 PM EDT
    Drakkonis

    great article!!!

      #1.2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:12 PM EDT
      Reply
      Doctor Leon

      No, you will not be lighting a candle for Professor Dawkins, you will be lighting the candle for yourself as just another nonsensical behavior attributable to your delusions about a supreme being.

      Your entire argument against Dawkins is based on what you "believe" but not what you can prove. Using a ludicrous argument that many scientists "believe" in God is about as much proof of a supreme being as the conclusion that cocaine is good for everyone because Freud used it. (Not that I'm suggesting Freud was a scientist. He just seems to serve as an appropriate metaphor.)

      On the other hand; Dawkins will never be able to disprove the existence of a supreme being, so it appears to me that both parties to this "philosophical" (you notice I didn't use the word "intellectual") dispute could use the same arguments to debate the existence of aliens or even the existence of economists who can correctly predict the stock market. It's all nothing more than a matter of belief on the part of the perceiver.

      Imagine. An entire commentary about Dawkins; somebody neither I nor I might suggest most Americans have ever heard of. Well, now we know someone dislikes him intensely and what does it all matter. You will still believe in some supernatural being, I won't; others might agree with you and many won't and it doesn't matter whether they're scientists, mental patients or politicians; what difference does it make?

      I just look at the world and see more suffering than makes any sense at all, and I laugh at "philosophers" who debate the existence of god while it all happens.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:22 AM EDT
      just4theplanetDeleted
      FL Independent

      I dont think you can use the same logic to disprove aliens. It is quite logical to posit that we are not unique in the universe and the other beings would progress in similar and even dissimilar ways to us.

      We can be pretty sure that life on this planet either got here by a god or that life developed here through some process. If it developed here through some process, the materials that created us were once part of the stars so those materials are fairly common and should exist through the known universe.

      The god question is, I think, uniquely different since it involves the supernatural which is counter to everything that we see. Like most people, I think it would be great if it was true but Im just not seeing it.

      • 3 votes
      #2.2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:48 AM EDT
      Moderate GOP

      Thank you Doc. I am American and have read the book. Most Americans would benefit from this read. I do not think they would agree, but at least get them thinking. The question is, who created the creator? No, wait who created the creator's creator? Ah heck, how about who created the creator's creator's creator?

      • 1 vote
      #2.3 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT
      T Bourlon

      I don't know why I should care about "who created the creator." Most of us accept that HE has always been around. If you find that foolish, well, that's your perogative, but if you are entitled to yours then I should at least be entitled to mine.

      • 1 vote
      #2.4 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:28 PM EDT
      Andrew-1162039

      First, to the author, I suggest you delete your above comment since the direction to your own website is a clear violation of the newsvine CoH.

      Although we have inklings of God – in the end God is ultimate mystery.

      Next I'd like to comment on this statement, which when coupled with your self described theism is a complete and utter contradiction. Simply by defining something as God you're saying it's not a mystery at all. You're claiming a sentient being with supernatural powers who created the universe. If it truly was a mystery you'd willingly admit you have no bloody clue, but that's not what you or other theists do. You assign the unknown the name God, anthropomorphize it, and generally make 1,000 other ridiculous claims in your deities name. Weak atheism and agnosticism are the only positions that actually take the philosophical position you're championing above, that some things are an ultimate mystery. Agnostics say humbly they have no bloody idea - some going so far as to say that such knowledge is indeed unattainable, while weak atheists go a little further by saying they have no bloody idea, but your idea about a virgin birth, a magic snake, and people turning into salt is just ridiculous.

      • 4 votes
      #2.5 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT
      Drakkonis

      Simply by defining something as God you're saying it's not a mystery at all.

      This doesn't follow. We say dark matter exists yet beyond that we know little about it. It certainly is a mystery and saying, or even spectulating it exists doesn't make it less of a mystery.

      In the same way, saying God exists is no less a mystery. Saying He exists doesn't define Him. God, in His totality, is unknowable. We know some things about Him because He has shared with us that part of Himself we can understand, yet something so unbounded as God cannot be completely known. Most of us who believe in God do not anthropomorphize Him. We know that we were created to share some of His attributes but God is in no way human. He is not us.

        #2.6 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:21 PM EDT
        Andrew-1162039

        Calling something dark matter, like calling something God says it's not a mystery. Dark matter has known measurable effects on gravity. It supposedly comes in baryonic and non-baryonic forms, and it has a defined hypothetical structure in many cases. Claiming inconsistencies in gravitational effects are caused by dark matter is a hotly debated topic and claiming that this is what occurs is very different from simply saying we don't know what's causing these gravitational inconsistencies, which is why until more evidence appears many scientists are quite uncommited to the theory.

        We know some things about Him because He has shared with us that part of Himself we can understand, yet something so unbounded as God cannot be completely known. Most of us who believe in God do not anthropomorphize Him. We know that we were created to share some of His attributes but God is in no way human. He is not us.

        So you've had direct interactions with God, know a lot about Him somehow, have no problem referring to Him as a male person, but you're not anthropomorphizing. Check. At least deists who make no real claims about God have some intellectual honesty. When you start claiming you have direct knowledge of God you're only a couple steps from David Koresh territory.

        • 3 votes
        #2.7 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:10 AM EDT
        Reply
        FL Independent

        I think you are making the classic mistake of not understanding what atheism is. Its not the belief there is no god. Its the lack of belief in a god because there is no evidence to suggest there is one. It is a completely different thing.

        God supposedly interfered pretty often in the old days. Since then, not so much. Not a single incident of anything supernatural anywhere at any time. No rebellious ghosts, devils, demons, nothing. While he is supernatural, there should be things that occur that defy and contradict scientific explanations that are more than just due to our model being incomplete or wrong.

        Additionally, if people really believed in a god they would not have attempted to modify his word (the bible) or pick and choose what pieces to follow. One could also argue that if God did exist he would intervene to set people straight about corrupting his word.

        I think everyone wants to believe because the idea and the rewards of afterlife are a much better picture than the idea of ceasing to exist. However, many of us will not lie to ourselves just to comfort ourselves.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#3 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT
        T Bourlon

        If I may. God supposedly "interfered" pretty often in the Bible, but I think if you really look at it you'll see that hundreds of years passed between those "interferences." Further, Christians believe that once Jesus came to set the record straight, so to speak, there's been little need for massive interference. Now, you might think that's a cop-out, but this has been about 2,000 years, so it's probably not that out of step with the biblical timeline.

        As far as people modifying the Word, well, that's people for you. I keep trying to explain to my mother-in-law that two different people can read the same text and walk away with two different ideas about what they just read. Those ideas are naturally colored by personal opinion and experience. For instance, I (a woman) tend to reject most of what Paul says about women. I'd like to think I'm being "logical" in my stance that he was too influenced by the society at the time, the way Jesus treated his female followers, etc. But I must admit there's a possibility that I'm doing this because I just WANT to believe Paul was wrong. I think that makes me "human."

        Also, I don't think people are "lying" to themselves so much as accepting that this belief that SOMETHING created us is a real strong possibility. When I look at science and nature, I see that living creatures are "begotten" from other living creatures; therefore it makes sense that, despite evolution (which as you know doesn't really explain how life began), something "created" us. To me, the idea that nothing exploded for no reason and created our modern universe is the idea that doesn't make sense. Genesis may not be accurate, but the central idea that a powerful being, something outside of our natural boundaries, created the heavens and earth just makes more sense to me.

        Finally, I have to say your idea that "not a single incident of anything supernatural anywhere at any time" is likely incorrect. Rather, there's not a single incident that you are willing to accept, or that you are aware of. If someone swears they saw a ghost in a house, or the Virgin Mary in Guadalupe, or a UFO, well they are not likely going to have any scientific proof, but that lack of scientific proof won't stop them from believing that this encounter was real. Why? Because they EXPERIENCED it for themselves. And honestly, if you weren't there you can't really say they DIDN'T, now can you? If I hear something like "Obama is a Muslim," all I've got is evidence that he attended a Christian Church in Chicago for 20 years; pretty compelling but hardly proof that he's not a closet Muslim (this is just an example, I don't really want to get into this). So for the most part I base my opinion on my own logical reasoning, however good or poor it might be, and I think most of the time that's all any of us are really going to have.

        • 1 vote
        #3.1 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:22 PM EDT
        landspirit

        So for the most part I base my opinion on my own logical reasoning, however good or poor it might be, and I think most of the time that's all any of us are really going to have

        Well said. The more knowledge we have, the more material we have upon to base our conceptions. One cannot bound anything. I have found that sometimes too much knowledge of one subject can bound a person's knowledge. It is amazing to teach a basic biology course to business majors. Within their innocence of knowledge remains the ability often to see what those steeped in the subject can no longer. And I imagine it is visa versa.

          #3.2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:08 PM EDT
          FL Independent

          The inteferences did not always happen hundreds of years apart. Moses alone had several things during his lifetime.

          I keep trying to explain to my mother-in-law that two different people can read the same text and walk away with two different ideas about what they just read.

          Im not talking about just interpreting it differently. Im talking about directly editing and leaving out sections based on the whims of his representatives, the church.

          Also, I don't think people are "lying" to themselves so much as accepting that this belief that SOMETHING created us is a real strong possibility.

          A strong possibility based on what? The only reason people think this is because they were told about it. Just like those that were told about Zeus or any other god that has passed by the wayside.

          Genesis may not be accurate, but the central idea that a powerful being, something outside of our natural boundaries, created the heavens and earth just makes more sense to me.

          Again based on what? There is nothing except the word of another person that even presents this idea as plausible.

          Finally, I have to say your idea that "not a single incident of anything supernatural anywhere at any time" is likely incorrect. Rather, there's not a single incident that you are willing to accept,

          You dont know its incorrect and you have no idea what I am willing to accept. There should be something at this point as evidence. Scientific readings, photos, videos something that other people can do something with. Its not like we havent been looking.

          Because they EXPERIENCED it for themselves

          I can experience all kinds of things in dreams, taking drugs, or if I was delusional or had a mental disorder. That doesnt mean those things are real. It only means that I experienced them. Also, a UFO, in the alien spaceship sense, is not supernatural.

          • 1 vote
          #3.3 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:12 PM EDT
          T Bourlon

          "A strong possibility based on what? The only reason people think this is because they were told about it. Just like those that were told about Zeus or any other god that has passed by the wayside."

          Your point? The only reason most of us know ANYTHING is because someone told us; we rarely directly see more than a small amount of the things we accept as real or valid.

          "You dont know its incorrect and you have no idea what I am willing to accept. There should be something at this point as evidence. Scientific readings, photos, videos something that other people can do something with. Its not like we havent been looking."

          Sorry if I've offended you, but it appears that such a broad statement as "not a single incident" suggests to me that you are not accepting any of the hundreds of recorded events as "supernatural." You discount UFO's, fine, I just threw them in because they're in that subjective area of "lots of belief/little proof." When an event happens, you don't necessarily have a camera in your hands (though with cell phones that's actually more possible). Scientific readings like what? Didn't we just discuss that "supernatural" by definition is outside of nature and therefore CAN'T be recorded? We have "Ghost Hunters" using equipment to try to determine if a place is haunted, and I read an article where someone wondered why they would think a different temperature reading or "evp" is proof of a ghost? Good question. I don't really believe in ghosts per se, but I at least leave the door open that maybe SOMETHING is going on there (got my own theory as to what that is), and maybe someday we'll have some device that can determine just what that something is. But we don't have that device NOW, so there's no point in asking for scientific proof when there's no chance that you'll get it. Right now all we've got is the word of other people, their experiences and such. You may choose to write those off as drug-induced hallucenations, well that's your perogative, but I don't think you'll sell other people on that.

          Incidentally, yes Moses seem to have a direct line, so did Abraham. There's a few hundred years between those two. Issac didn't seem to have any real connection, and Jacob's story doesn't demonstrate any "interference," not from God anyway. That was MY point.

          • 1 vote
          #3.4 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:20 PM EDT
          FL Independent

          Your point? The only reason most of us know ANYTHING is because someone told us; we rarely directly see more than a small amount of the things we accept as real or valid.

          Yes, but just about everything we can test whether or not what they are telling us is the truth. Fire hurts, easy to test. Gravity exists, easy to test. God created everything, nothing to test. As you can see there is quite a chasm of difference.

          Didn't we just discuss that "supernatural" by definition is outside of nature and therefore CAN'T be recorded?

          No, nothing at all was said about it not being able to be recorded. Just that it was outside of nature and defied a rational scientific explanation. But just because something cant be explained based on logic and reason does not mean it would not have a phsyical manifestation.

          Using your ghost example, lore has it that the temperature drops when ghosts are around. How about a verified house where the temperature inside the haunted house is so low compared to the outside temperature that no logical explanation to account for it (no a/c, no underground air shafts, etc).

          If these things actually exist and are interacting with our reality then they should be having an objective effct. If they are just being experienced solely by individuals, therefore cant be distinguished things that are in that person's head, then you cant tell anything and wed need to let alot of people out of psyche wards because we cant verify or disprove what they are saying/seeing.

          But we don't have that device NOW, so there's no point in asking for scientific proof when there's no chance that you'll get it.

          How do you know we couldnt detect things if they existed? While we are always discovering new things, it is a bit of a cop out to constantly say we just havent invented something to discover them yet. You can say that forever. And you can use that excuse about anything: leprechauns, unicorns, real magic, etc. Yet we do not treat the claims of people who believe in those things with any seriousness. The only difference between those people and the religious is the number of people who share the belief.

          • 1 vote
          #3.5 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:11 PM EDT
          T Bourlon

          I wish I had the article; the question was WHY did the Ghosthunters think temperature drops and evp's were proof of ghosts? The author of THAT piece said it only proved that the temperature dropped, and that something weird was recorded. I think you would agree with me that a cold spot could be explained by a number of things. Yes it's ghost lore but how valid? Just as you said, how valid are leprechauns and unicorns? I doubt you really want to hear this, but here goes. I don't believe that ghosts are "trapped spirits." I believe that places have memories, or imprints, of the events that have happened there. All the ghost stories I've seen or heard center around an EVENT that happened at a PLACE. Now, people have left behind fingerprints and DNA since forever, but only recently have we developed the devices to detect these things. THAT'S what I meant by asking for scientific proof when we don't have the ability to scientifically detect or test things. For the record, I don't have the ability to test whether the Earth is round, or if there's oxygen on the Moon. I have to take the word of other people who've been there, and I assume have tested these things. As far as God, not wanting to get into another long-winded description, let's say I've seen enough things to convince me that there WAS a creator, and that the Bible, as flawed as it may be, is a good explanation for what that creator is all about. These things probably wouldn't qualify as some way to scientifically test whether God created everything or not, but it's good enough for me. It is at least as valid as pictures of the Earth that I'm told were taken from the Moon, by men whom I'm told actually went there. Some people think that was all done in a studio, and there's probably no talking to them, either.

          But if you have some idea about how we could set up a scientific test to determine the existence of GOD, I'd be willing to listen. I've heard a few atheists say "If he showed up and talked to me...." well that's pretty much what happens to most Christians. And if he DID show up and talk to you, how many of your atheist friends would take YOUR word for it?

          • 1 vote
          #3.6 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:21 PM EDT
          FL Independent

          Actually you do have the ability to test if the earth is round. One is the shadow on the moon. Second is you could travel around it, going in a straight line and arriving back at the same place. You can also see the curvature from high altitudes. There are other things as well, so you have plenty of options at your disposal to test that.

          But if you have some idea about how we could set up a scientific test to determine the existence of GOD, I'd be willing to listen.

          Yes, have him do something that cannot be explained rationally or have an rational cause. Have it rain skittles. Have him place use a cloud molded to his face and talk to an entire city, where thousands if not million see it. Have him make the moon rainbow color for an hour with no atmospheric conditions to explain it. There are nearly countless ways he could prove it. But it would require effort from him.

          I've heard a few atheists say "If he showed up and talked to me...." well that's pretty much what happens to most Christians. And if he DID show up and talk to you, how many of your atheist friends would take YOUR word for it?

          No its not the same. First off, many religions specific look for religious explanations for things and use that as their got to reason. You are then looking at things to justify your belief. For an atheist it would be the last explanation after nothing else could be found. And if he did show up and talk to me it would have to be like talking to another physical person that I could see or a very loud booming voice from the sky. No voices in the head or in a dream or anything like that. I would ask how I could prove to others but I wouldnt expect people to take my word for it nor would I try to convince others unless it was specifically asked of me. And even then there would be nothing I could say or do except tell them to look at my life since that happened. Anything else would not be of any value since I couldnt provide any other evidence.

          • 1 vote
          #3.7 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:17 PM EDT
          T Bourlon

          This is probably beating a dead horse, but oh well:

          "Yes, have him do something that cannot be explained rationally or have an rational cause. Have it rain skittles. Have him place use a cloud molded to his face and talk to an entire city, where thousands if not million see it."

          Seriously? That would only prove that he could do cool tricks aka David Copperfield. And there have been numerous documented cases where people swear they saw something, in fact there's a Church in Croatia where hundreds of people swear they saw miracles and were healed of their illnesses. Does that work for you?

          Yes, people definitely look at things to justify their beliefs. Fred Phelps swears the W. VA. mine collapsed as punishment for his people not being allowed to protest across the street from Virginia Tech. Kind of an "if-then" correlation. Now, getting into the "why I DON'T believe that" could actually be an interesting discussion.

          "For an atheist it would be the last explanation after nothing else could be found. And if he did show up and talk to me it would have to be like talking to another physical person that I could see or a very loud booming voice from the sky. No voices in the head or in a dream or anything like that. I would ask how I could prove to others but I wouldnt expect people to take my word for it nor would I try to convince others unless it was specifically asked of me. And even then there would be nothing I could say or do except tell them to look at my life since that happened. Anything else would not be of any value since I couldnt provide any other evidence."

          That's exactly how I feel. I KNOW I've communicated with God, but trying to sell that to an atheist -- let's just say a few have ridiculed my explanation, my "proof" of God's existence. The Bible gets discounted, my personal experience gets discounted, proof is offered but not accepted. That's okay, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on my proof, but at least we have talked. Have a good day.

            #3.8 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:32 PM EDT
            T Bourlon

            Btw, the Church is in Medjugorje, in Bosnia. Thousands have claimed to see the Virgin Mary in the Church, talked to her, listened to her, etc. So the "interference" is out there, you either believe it or don't, but it's out there.

              #3.9 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:07 PM EDT
              FL Independent

              Seriously? That would only prove that he could do cool tricks aka David Copperfield.

              Are you kidding me? I get god to perform a task to prove to me he exists and you think the only thing I would get from that is that he could do cool tricks? I would get proof of his existence, who cares about stupid tricks.

              And there have been numerous documented cases where people swear they saw something, in fact there's a Church in Croatia where hundreds of people swear they saw miracles and were healed of their illnesses. Does that work for you?

              Swearing they saw something means nothing. Theres no evidence. People swear they saw bigfoot and loch ness. Healing of illnesses maybe. Is there documented evidence of their illness both before and after their 'miracle'? Has the water the soil been tested for anything that could have an impact? What type of illnesses? This vague 'healed of illness' doesnt mean much.

              proof is offered but not accepted

              I have never heard of a case where objective proof was offered, only personal experiences. Thats not proof. Proof exists independent of any individual. I dont need people experiencing gravity to prove gravity exists.

              Let me ask you this, lets say you have a dream, and you interpret it to mean god was telling you something. How can you tell the difference between when god was actually talking to you or it was just a dream? And please dont say you just know because you brain can create any feeling/knowledge sensation in your dreams.

              I would love to believe but theres nothing that I have seen that presents anything to support the case. But there is a wealth of examples and cases that point to problems, inconsistencies, etc with the case for god.

              • 3 votes
              #3.10 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
              thelyamhound

              And there have been numerous documented cases where people swear they saw something, in fact there's a Church in Croatia where hundreds of people swear they saw miracles and were healed of their illnesses.

              Only if there weren't also accounts of spontaneous healing (along with bleeding/weeping/milk-giving statues, visits with apparitions of deities or dead saints/bodhisattvas/etc.) in pretty nearly all other faith constructs.

              If mere anecdote is to be taken as binding, it must be said that deity is patently non-denominational . . . and therefore not really in any position to insist that we believe one construct over and above all others.

              • 3 votes
              #3.11 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 1:29 PM EDT
              Reply
              JJM-1019980

              Why is God supernatural? Why can't he just be really, really smartt?

                Reply#4 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:57 AM EDT
                Pastor Obasola SHODERU

                Whom then do you ascribe creation to? Just a force, the so-called 'big bang' or some creationist? Which of this is your suspended belief system? Get serious and be logically connected, because things don't just happen!

                  Reply#5 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:12 PM EDT
                  Pastafarian

                  because things don't just happen!

                  What about your god? Didn't he just "happen"?

                  • 4 votes
                  #5.1 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:26 PM EDT
                  JJM-1019980

                  Why don't things just happen?

                  • 2 votes
                  #5.2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Andrew-1162039

                  including the multitude of scientists (40%) who believe in a Creator God. No doubt these scientists are also deluded ignoramuses

                  I can't believe you're trying to use an argumentum ad populum based on scientists who believe in God while at the same time proudly stating the percentage when even a cursory review shows that this number represents a huge negative correlation between education in the sciences and religious belief. In general a person has a 90% chance of believing in God but scientists are sitting at 40%? Huh, I wonder what the cause of this negative correlation could possibly be?

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#6 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:59 PM EDT
                  just4theplanet

                  Some interesting observations. Just a few comments. "Belief" (Dr Leon) enters into all realms of knowledge. My point was to show Dawkins obsession with atheism - to the point of dropping "rationality" which he values so much. I was also emphasising the role of deductive reasoning as a road to knowledge - which has nothing to do with "evidence". You may laugh at "philosophers" - but I suggest you read some of them. Perhaps then you might have a more nuanced response to the article. Looks Like I'll be lighting two candles now.

                  Oh - Andrew - how was my argument based on the percentage of scientists who believe in a Creator? Yes i mention a statistic - simply because Dawkins argues that science necessitates atheism. Where do you get the statistic that 90% of people believe in God? Not that this has any relavence whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that for most of the 20th century academia was largely atheistic as a result of Marxist ideas and Logical Positivism. This has been changing in recent years as intelligent people are realising that philisophical materialism (and scientism) is a myopic worldview which is ultimately incomplete. So we'll make that three candles.

                    Reply#7 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:44 PM EDT
                    Dean Ozone

                    intelligent people are realising that philisophical materialism (and scientism) is a myopic worldview which is ultimately incomplete.

                    Would you mind expanding on this a bit? Please define these terms and explain how they constitute an "incomplete worldview."

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 11:15 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    Terry Yoder

                    All the candle lighting in the world won't shed light on resolving this debate. In my estimation faith has nothing to do with reasoning and belief amounts to no more than a mental fixation. Belief constructs are nothing new to human animal evolution. What has always mattered however had nothing to do with belief attainment and had everything to do with the satisfaction of primordial human desire.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#8 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:35 AM EDT
                    Jack Huang

                    Rather interesting that the author lambasts Dawkins for erecting strawmen, when, about 1/3 of the way through the article, the author switches from making some justifiable criticisms of Dawkins to suddenly caricaturing atheism, whitewashing theism, and outright lying about science.

                    Dawkins also suggests that atheists are somehow persecuted or misunderstood – even discriminated against. This is a ridiculous suggestion –

                    Really? Atheists are currently the least trusted demographic in the US (yes, ranked below both gays and Muslims). Sitting US presidents can declare all atheists to be unpatriotic on national television (as George Bush Sr. did), and no one bats an eye. Simply because you don't currently see anti-atheist pogroms in the US doesn't mean they're not being discriminated against.

                    as academia has been dominated by philosophical naturalism (atheism) for most of the twentieth century largely as a result of the influence of Marxist ideas.

                    Which fields of academia? English majors? How much of the general population is composed of hard-science academicians? Care to venture a ballpark figure?

                    Indeed for much of that century half the world was officially atheist – under Communist regimes.

                    Thus, atheists aren't ever discriminated against? For the last few centuries, most of the world has been non-white. I suppose, then, that Western discrimination against racial minorities never has and doesn't still exist, right? What absurd poppycock.

                    I think Richard Dawkins has taken up his fundamentalist atheist crusade because many in the atheist camp (myself included) have moved -and are moving to the Theist camp- including Britain’s most famous atheist – Anthony Flew. The God Delusion is simply a desperate attempt to shore up atheism’s crumbling defences.

                    Don't puff out your chest too much. You might hurt yourself. Dawkins has actually stated that he's upped his ante, so to speak, because fundamentalist Christianity is gaining alarming traction in Western countries.

                    By the way, I see your Anthony Flew and raise you a Stephen Hawking, since we're apparently playing the anecdote game. ;-)

                    It is becoming apparent to many intelligent people that a scientific materialist account of everything does not constitute the whole story.

                    Very, very few people have ever claimed such a thing. Science, unlike religion, has never claimed to know everything. Rather, it prides itself on knowing what it has yet to find out.

                    Further, you seem to, either intentionally or unintentionally, have confused many of Dawkins' criticisms of organized religion and doctrinal literalism with criticism of some bare belief in a creator being of some sort.

                    Throughout the 20th century a naturalist assumption has been integral to western culture – especially academia. I would argue that it is a fundamental error to see such assumptions as necessarily true.

                    Such an assumption has been integral to the hard sciences (gotta love how you so incessantly thumb your nose at "academia" and contrast it to "intelligent people") solely because it's useful.

                    Imagine if there was an underlying assumption in science that we'll absolutely never be able to explain certain things because such things simply happen due to God's magical hand-waving. Great, there goes that avenue of exploration. After all, why waste your time on something you've simply declared impossible to scientifically understand?

                    Thus, the scientific assumption of universal naturalistic explanation.

                    Wisdom begins in wonder – and it increases when we become aware of our pre-suppositions and question them.

                    Yet one of the most fundamental tenets of religion is obedience to the commands of God (overwhelmingly under threat of bad stuff happening after you die). Obedience does not particularly encourage questioning.

                    Professor Dawkins suggests that believers have an intractable, arrogant idea that they know everything. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although we have inklings of God – in the end God is ultimate mystery. He is awesome by His very nature. An essential component of the spiritual is the experience of wonder.

                    You're whitewashing general "believers" by claiming that none claim to know everything. I've met countless proselytizing asshats who claim to know God's will, and use that claim in and of itself as some sort of rhetorical free pass to make arbitrary declarations.

                    The God delusion has helped to perpetuate two major modern myths. First that religion and science contradict each other. In fact science is a western development precisely because of its Judeo Christian tradition of Theism.

                    Science is a western development? Are you including the Middle East in "Western"? Further, you'll find that the Chinese made a number of scientific discoveries before the West did. There simply wasn't enough intercontinental communication back then.

                    People like Isaac Newton sought to understand the “Laws” of nature put into existence by a Creator/Lawgiver.

                    And Mendel was a monk. However, this hardly suggests that their particular theistic tendencies directly motivated their scientific curiosity. By the way, later in life, Newton also made an obsession of trying to find secret codes in Biblical texts and tasting heavy metals to perfect alchemy. So, not the best general example of the virtues of theistic motivation.

                    The second myth is that Theists are unthinking drones. If Aristotle, Augustine, Plotinus, Aquinas, Descartes, Kant, Einstein and Collins and thousands of other genius’s are unthinking drones -this would make Richard Dawkins intelligence amoeba like.

                    While I disagree with how far Dawkins takes it, he certainly doesn't merely suggest that theists are absolutely unthinking drones in every imaginable way. Rather, that in the pursuit of their theism, they suspend rational analysis in certain aspects, essentially becoming selectively unthinking.

                    By the way, Einstein was hardly a theist. He could barely even pass for a Deist.

                    I would like to ask the professor – if science is solely about evidence and hard “facts” – how come mathematics is based upon deductive reasoning – and most science is based on mathematics?

                    My goodness do you have an abysmal understanding of science. Most of science uses mathematics as a tool. For example, the Pythagorean theorem holds as a long-standing mathematical construct because it fits with observational evidence (within its idealized constraints). We pick and choose the mathematical constructs used in science because they produce results which fit with observational evidence.

                    After all when the first Apollo spacecraft went to the moon and back – the astronauts were relying on the fact that everything had been worked out in the heads of scientists before it happened in reality.

                    Yes, it's called extrapolation. It's the primary purpose of scientific research and every scientific theory. Further, Apollo wasn't designed simply by a group of eggheads locked in a room with a pile of slide rules. Every component of Apollo was tested, and its design drawn from decades of rocketry and spacecraft research.

                    Good attempt, though, dear chap. Your oversimplification almost made sense there.

                    And while we are at it – what is a quark? Is it “real” – or is it a mathematical concept?

                    We've detected them actually (you know, with big shiny machine doohickies). You're much better off trying to criticize string theory, though, unfortunately, such criticisms won't go very far, since strings are recognized as purely theoretical.

                    Does time really stop at the speed of light? How do sub atomic particles “know” what other particles are doing billions of miles away? What is dark matter and dark energy? Apparently these are very real – even though no one has seen them.

                    Actually, the first one is a theoretical limit (not "very real"), the second one is an explanation of an observed phenomena (the phenomena is "very real", the explanation is theoretical), and the third is a theoretical construct created to explain observational evidence.

                    None of the things you cited are, themselves, considered "very real." Nice try.

                    I could go on

                    Sure, but you should probably quit while you're not that far behind.

                    Philosophical Naturalism/Atheism

                    They're not actually interchangeable, and mere atheism certainly does not rule out the supernatural. But hey, you seem to on an overgeneralization roll, so perhaps we should see where this carnival ride ends up.

                    tries to offer an account of thought – but this account leaves no room for the acts of knowing and insight (used by scientists and everyone else) on which the whole value of our thinking – as a means to truth – depends.

                    Atheism leaves no room for "knowing and insight"? Non sequitur.

                    And so human Reason itself – the concept that Richard Dawkins claims is the cornerstone of atheism – is in a very real sense supernatural. Not in a “spooky” – or even “spiritual” way – more like in the sense that it won’t fit into nature.

                    Really? Rational thought doesn't fit into nature? I suppose you actually have an explanation for this claim?

                    Thinking and insight is knowledge sufficiently free from “nature” to be determined only by the truth it knows. Give this up and you give up nature also.

                    I'd love to see you actually support this empty declaration with... well, anything, really.

                    The first third of your article was well-written, and made some good points. But, it rather disappointingly devolved even a slightly-more-eloquent-than-average rendition of using scientific ignorance (and at times, simple fabrications) to criticize a caricature of the philosophy of science.

                    • 6 votes
                    Reply#9 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 5:15 PM EDT
                    just4theplanet

                    I would like to thank Mr Haung for his detailed and interesting post.

                    A few things in response:

                    I only caricature Dawkins atheism - I don't believe i whitewashed theism - and if i got some science wrong I can only apologise - but lies - no.

                    Much of what you say betrays an American arrogance. The World does not revolove around the USA. There is no discrimination over here in Europe. Do you know Europe? - where (as the very funny atheist Eddy Izzard says) - the history is.

                    I have not heard of discrimination of atheists in Australasia, I don't know about Latin America but doubt it, probably yes in much of the Muslim world {shame on them}. India prides it's secular constitution ( despite the millions of devout Hindus) and of course the most populous country on earth - China - is officially atheist - and has a history of discriminating against Theism. Indeed it is interesting that nations that have a Theist tradition such as the UK - are very accommodating to all beliefs - including atheism - which is taught in the school curriculum: yet nations that espouse atheism (China,Soviet Russia, Cambodia etc) were responsible for millions of innocent deaths.

                    If atheists are being discriminated against over there I have every sympathy. I did live in the USA for 12 years - but that was in California - and I certainly heard nothing about discrimination. I read recently that there are some archaic clauses in the constitutions of 6 states barring atheists - and the Supreme Court ruled them unenforcable 50 years ago. If this is widespread discrimination - 6 states out of 50 - with unenforcable provisions - because of a law that is there - but hasn't been taken off the statute book -well mmmmm - I believe it is illegal for a woman in Liverpool to be topless -except as a clerk in a tropical fish store - in York it's legal to murder a Scotsman within the city walls - as long as he is carrying a bow and arrow - and my favourite - it is legal for a pregnant woman to relieve herself anywhere in the UK - even in a policemans helmut.

                    I am aware of having some fun here - but these are real laws - and I think you get my point.

                    Back to your response: yes indeed throughout much of the 20th century in Europe Marxist ideas and Logical Positivism did have a major effect on all areas of higher education - especially the social sciences - and yes the Arts and even English majors. This was not so strong in the USA - but again - The USA aint planet earth - and quoting "W" does not help your argument.

                    Racial discrimination? Gosh are you really comparing this to the imaginary discrimination against atheists? I think I 'll quote you here -absurd poppycock.

                    You say Dawkins has upped his ante because fundamentalist Christianity is gaining alarming traction in Western countries. OH - again you mean the USA. How silly of me! I forgot again that the world revolves around the USA! And as i said in the piece, i dislike christian fundamentalists for the same reasons i dislike Dawkins. Maybe you should read it again.

                    Yes i did raise Anthony flew. You want to raise a Hawking. He has always been agnostic on the God issue - although he once said that a unified theory would enable us to know the Mind of God. Yes i know he was speaking metaphorically - and in the publicity for his new book there is talk of "no need for God". This doesn't alter anything - you well know that M theory and "string" theory are mathamatical constructs - which may well be "true" - you well know it does not "disprove" a Deity. Indeed I think that the God thing was probably a marketing ploy on the part of the publisher.

                    You say science prides itself on knowing what it has yet to find out. I could'nt agree more. I was not criticising science - I was citicising scientism - which is a philisophical view. Theists should embrace science - most of the thinking ones do.

                    I don't incessantly "thumb" my nose up at anyone. I was demonstarting the influence of a world view (philisophical naturalism) on all areas of study. Yes the hard sciences - but also the social sciences and the arts.

                    What did I say happens because of "Gods magical handwaving" All areas are open to scientific exploration. Please stop becoming a Dawkins clone.

                    Obedience doesn't encourage questioning? Isn't everyone to some extent under obedience? The under secretary is obedient to the Secretary of State who is obedient to the President - who must abide by the Constitution (which protects atheists as well as anyone) . What if the person in authority says "you must explore every possible avenue to find the truth" Again Theism has nothing to worry about - they are searching for the Truth as well. They just happen to be a little closer to it than atheists.

                    Yes science is largely a western development. I am not a scientist - and you say my philosophy of science is poor. Well maybe i have been reading the wrong books - the scientific method according to my reading is a Very western development.

                    You outline some of the eccentricities of Issac Newton. So? He is still regarded as one of the greatest scientists of all time. He did seek out "laws" he believed were created by a Lawgiver. Like Dawkins - it really riles you to think that some of our greatest minds were/are Theists.

                    Yes - Dawkins does think Theists are unthinking drones. Of course he tends to pick on the "fundamentalists" and the suicide bombers - again building up his straw men - which he can then so easily destroy. As for serious Theist thinkers - I'm not sure what he really thinks - probably that they may have some intelligence - but are still deluded. I mentioned in my piece (I am a magician) that he probably thinks we have a "suspension of disbelief". But there again - maybe the same charge could be levelled at atheists.

                    I know Einstien was a Deist. And? This means he believed in a supernatural Cause/Being behind the universe. This maybe closer to perhaps a Eastern idea of Deity - but it is Diety non the less. So that is Newton and Einstein - probably the 2 greatest scientists in history - how dare they believe in a Being beyond the Universe.!!

                    I may have an abysmal understanding of science - but - yes maths is a tool for scientists - yes i know about extrapolation. So? My point was that knowledge comes to us not onl by inductive reasoning and "evidence" - but also through deductive reasoning.

                    Are you a scientist? Are you a philosopher? Are you a trash collector? I don't care what you are but can youl explain deductive reasoning - and how it relates to the gathering of knowledge? What is a "machine doohickey"? Are you talking about CERN? (once again the Europeans ahead of the americans) It's amazing how many books have been published on string theory (including Hawkins latest) - which you say is purely theoretical.

                    I wasn't asking if the speed of light was a "theoretical limit" - i knew that - i was asking if time stopped. How is dark energy "very real"? - the observed phenomena is -in the energy case an expanding accellerating universe. You say the explanation is theoretical. OK - so it's like string theory. Excellent - glad we cleared that up.

                    You say atheism doesn't rule out the supernatural. Don't tell Dawkins (or Dennet or Hitchins - or most other atheists) that . Science does not demand atheism. However atheism requires philisophical naturalism. If you don't think this you are not an atheist. Wow that's great Jack - there's hope for you yet!

                    The point about "knowing and insight" - was not that atheists don't have it - of course they do - i was pointing out that naturalism is not a sufficient explanation when it comes to Reason. And i capitalize Reason (and of course Dawkins seems to think theists have lost it) - for this reason. It indeed does not quite fit into "nature". It is beyond the movement of atoms and molecules in the brain. Can i support this "empty declaration"? Well - as i have said not all knowledge is empirical. I have mentioned deductive reasoning. But there is also personal experience and something the philosohers call Gnosis. Now i know Jack the Lad will see this as nonsense - Gnosis is an inner knowing that comes through what Christians call "Grace". When this is recieved along with all the scientific data in the world - then you enter into a world of wonder and awe. As Einstein said, the most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. He said it was the source of all true art and science. Wonder is, as Socates said, the begining of wisdom - it is also an act of faith.; One who has never been bewildered, who has never looked upon existence as something that requires answers and yet paradoxically, for which the only answers are new questions, can hardly understand what spiritual reality is.

                    Wonder and awe distiguishes humanity from the rest of creation. Such concepts combine a wish to know with the knowledge that all cannot be known. As a magician i would like to say that it is indeed a world of magic and perpetual surprise which accepts logic and science and then passes beyond.

                    Perhaps Jack will appreciate this one day - i wish him all the best. But I'm afraid, as the English diminuitive Comedian Ronnie Corbett might say, "can i have 4 candles please."

                      Reply#10 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:04 AM EDT
                      AdipicAcid

                      I have not heard of discrimination of atheists in Australasia

                      I have a feeling the quality of life of a self-admitted atheist in either Indonesia or Malaysia would be poor.

                      • 2 votes
                      #10.1 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:42 AM EDT
                      Jack Huang

                      Much of what you say betrays an American arrogance. The World does not revolove around the USA. There is no discrimination over here in Europe.

                      This is a US website, where the users are predominantly American. I went with highest probabilities.

                      Further, you made absolutely no geographic caveats in your claim of "atheists aren't discriminated against." During the era of Manifest Destiny, I'm pretty sure there were certain world cultures which didn't think of Africans as subhuman. That doesn't meant that Africans were thusly not discriminated against.

                      (Eddie Izzard is one of my favorite stand-up comics)

                      I am aware of having some fun here - but these are real laws - and I think you get my point.

                      Indeed, I do. You believe that discrimination against atheism deserves no serious consideration, and should be relegated merely to flippant mockery, excused solely by the fact that you haven't noticed it and that the US doesn't count when talking about discrimination. Duly noted.

                      Racial discrimination? Gosh are you really comparing this to the imaginary discrimination against atheists? I think I 'll quote you here -absurd poppycock.

                      And your sole argument for pretending that atheist discrimination doesn't exist is "I haven't really noticed that it happens much where I hang out." Great argument, there, especially when you yourself said, in the same comment: "I don't know about Latin America but doubt it, probably yes in much of the Muslim world {shame on them}."

                      You've admitted that some cultures pervasively discriminate against atheists, then turn around and claim that discrimination against atheists is "imaginary"? Who's being an ethnocentric asshat, again?

                      Indeed it is interesting that nations that have a Theist tradition such as the UK - are very accommodating to all beliefs - including atheism - which is taught in the school curriculum: yet nations that espouse atheism (China,Soviet Russia, Cambodia etc) were responsible for millions of innocent deaths.

                      You either know nothing about history and haven't heard of this modern place called "the Middle East," or believe that I'm a complete idiot, and think that so crudely whitewashing the history of theistic cultures actually works on me.

                      Indeed I think that the God thing was probably a marketing ploy on the part of the publisher.

                      Ah yes. When in doubt, dismiss inconvenient statements as a "marketing ploy."

                      The under secretary is obedient to the Secretary of State who is obedient to the President - who must abide by the Constitution (which protects atheists as well as anyone) .

                      Oh, I see. You're allowed to talk about the US whenever you'd like, but Heaven forbid I do the same thing. You know, because when I do it, it's totally heinous ethnocentrism.

                      What if the person in authority says "you must explore every possible avenue to find the truth"

                      And this rarely happens in theism, especially the organized religions of (wait for it) Europe.

                      Again Theism has nothing to worry about - they are searching for the Truth as well. They just happen to be a little closer to it than atheists.

                      Gotta love the casual self-superior quips.

                      You outline some of the eccentricities of Issac Newton. So? He is still regarded as one of the greatest scientists of all time. He did seek out "laws" he believed were created by a Lawgiver. Like Dawkins - it really riles you to think that some of our greatest minds were/are Theists.

                      Sigh, conversation gets rather droll when you try to feign psychic ability. Perhaps you missed the part where I brought up Mendel, explicitly noting he was a monk. But hey, don't let that get in the way of calling me a poopyhead.

                      I may have an abysmal understanding of science - but - yes maths is a tool for scientists - yes i know about extrapolation. So? My point was that knowledge comes to us not onl by inductive reasoning and "evidence" - but also through deductive reasoning.

                      Yet, in science, that deductive reasoning must always be checked against evidence. You missed that part.

                      It's amazing how many books have been published on string theory (including Hawkins latest) - which you say is purely theoretical.

                      Yes, it's amazing how you think "number of books published" is some sort of measure of a theory's concrete applicability.

                      I know Einstien was a Deist. And? This means he believed in a supernatural Cause/Being behind the universe.

                      No, Einstein didn't believe in a supernatural being behind the universe. If you disagree, feel free to quote him on that, though you might want to read up on Spinoza's God first before you try your hand at rebuttal.

                      What is a "machine doohickey"? Are you talking about CERN?

                      Yes, among other organizations.

                      (once again the Europeans ahead of the americans)

                      Hahehaha, your geographic penis-fencing is amusing, especially when you incessantly feign umbrage against ethnocentrism.

                      However atheism requires philisophical naturalism. If you don't think this you are not an atheist.

                      Oh? Tell that to the Buddhists. :-P

                      It's amazing how you so casually meld astounding ignorance with blinding arrogance when you talk about things like atheism and physics. Really, it's quite impressive, dear chap.

                      Wow that's great Jack - there's hope for you yet!

                      And here I thought you were at least making a half-assed attempt at rational discourse.

                      Wonder and awe distiguishes humanity from the rest of creation.

                      You're absolutely sure that no other species have ever experienced wonder and awe? What curious certainty you have.

                      • 3 votes
                      #10.2 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 11:56 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      just4theplanet

                      Dear Jacko

                      Any discrimination deserves serious attention. If this is a growing trend in America it is indeed a worry.

                      You are right in pointing out that i should not have said discrimination doesn't exist (it exists - to an extent along with all discourse and belief)- my point was that it is not a concern in most western cultures - and indeed most other cultures accept perhaps for a handful of Muslim states. Radical Islam is a worry and may even be the most important issue in world politics and history over the next 50-100 years. But again I dislike radical Islam in the same way I dislike fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists. And believe me there are many traditional atheists who are very critical of Dawkins and Co.

                      The Middle East? Is that west of the near east and east of the east west? Although most people follow the Muslim faith - Egypt and Syria have secular constitutions, Jordon is a monarchy, Lebanon is a psuedo democracy, Iraq was a secular dictatorship and is now a psuedo-democracy and Israel is a democracy. The only theocracy is Iran - and they are a worry. As for the very complicated politics of the situation - please don't go down the simplistic "religion is the cause of this". Over here in The UK the Irish problem was/ is also a very complicated issue. If you follow the Dawkins argument - then you really should stick to your science - or study your history more carefully. Without being too simplistic the Middle Eastern problem is a result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the "mandated " terrotries administered by Britain and france after the Great War. Zionism and the British promise of a Jewish homeland (Balfour Declararion) unfortunately conradicted the work of Lawrence of Arabia in recruiting the Arab people . I could go on -the fact is - as in the case of Northern Ireland - "religion" is used as a cover for underlying political differences.

                      I don't know whether you are a scientist ( i assume you are due to your criticisms of my "philosophy" of science) but I am well read in history.I don't think you're a "complete idiot" - but how am i "whitewashing theistic cultures". All nations have blighted histories. The states that were officially atheist in the twentieth century were a disaster. Indeed i don't think I would be out of line by saying that the atheist experiment failed miserably. As for the Anglo Saxon tradition (your counry and mine) - democratic evolution came about within Theistic culture. Magna Carta - the Oxford Provisions - Parliament - Glorious Revolutions - Bill of Rights -American Independence - British democracy. European democracy was influenced by this tradition but had more revolutionary shifts (France etc).

                      The "marketing ploy" comment i heard on an ITV discussion between journalists- about Hawkins book - which remember he co-wrote.

                      As regards using the US government when discussing obedience - come on Jack - this could apply anywhere.

                      "This rarely happens in theism" - ie searching for truth. I suppose the most obvious Theistic grouping is the Catholic Church which is the oldest Christian Church in (wait for it) the world. Now - often it comes in for a lot of crtiticism - but rarely do we hear about the thousands of universites around the world (as well as humanitarian missions) - or the Vaticans astronomical observatory - or the fact that the last Pope had a keen interest in astro-physics and invited many of them to a conference to discuss modern findings (including Hawking). What does this show? Well in reiterates what i said in my last post. Theists have nothing to worry about science - they should embrace it - as the Church does. Now - Jack i don't want you to come back to me with talk of the Inquistion and Galilleo- we've heard it all before - no doubt you will say that The Church represents all that is regressive and dogmatic about religion. This is not true. Structure -yes. Obedience - to an extent - yes. But I notice Dawkins and co don't sit down and debate the Jesuits ( an order traditionally entered by the "intellectuals") - or priests and theologians with doctorates in physics chemistry or biology. I suppose Dawkins does not want to hear from a theologian/scientist that he agrees with the overall validity of evolution - and that he agrees the universe is 14 billion years old. No Dawkins prefers to discuss the Big questions with American southern fundamentalists who believe the world is 4020 years old and would stone their wives to death if they committed adultery.

                      Actually I do feign psychic ability - professionally as a magician and mentalist. But i also tell my audience that it is mostly trickery. But I don't think i did that here. Was Isaac Newton a great scientist or not? Was he a Theist?

                      Earlier you said that string theory was not about "evidence" or "facts". Yet here you say that so many books have been published because of the theory's "concrete applicability" ???? Come on Jack .

                      I have read Spinoza and i know that he is often regarded as a "pan-theist". Einsteins outlook was indeed similar. Spinoza was un Orthodox ( indeed he was excommunicated by his Jewish brethren) - but he did - like Einstein have a concept of a Mind behind and within the Cosmos. Many Theists see "God" in similar terms

                      I have never tried "penis fencing" - but it sounds a little homo -erotic for my liking.

                      Although Buddhists sometimes say they are atheists - a study of both the Theravada and Mahayana traditons reveal that the concepts of "Buddha Nature" and Nirvana are things that Hindu's and Christians would understand. The ultimate goal for Hindu's is for Atman (individual soul) to merge with Brahma ( Creator and Sustainer of the Universe). The Buddhist seeks "enlightenment" so he can experience Nirvana - in the same way that Christians wish to reach God - and indeed experience Him. So although Buddhists sometimes say thay are atheists - they are rejecting the idea of the "Old man in the sky". So do most thinking Theists. This explains the "death of God " theology from the 1960's on. It was not God who was being rejected - it was an outmoded vision - whch incidentally - no serious theologian ever had from St Paul on.

                      Thanks for the compliment! "astounding ignorance with blinding arrogance";. But then you say that what I say is quite impressive. Come on Jack - are you being facetious. You know you are hurting my feelings. But as Shakespeare once said ( he was English you know) I quote; "Me thinks he doth protest too much"

                      God bless you Jack. I've already lit the candle for you - even though the guy at the store gave me a fork handle yesterday!

                      ps when you are making love do you shout out "OH metaphysical construct that has no bearing in reality"?

                      pps Hear about the Agnostic, dyslexic insomniac. he lies awake all night wondering whether Dog really exists.

                        Reply#11 - Sat Sep 4, 2010 8:59 AM EDT
                        Jack Huang

                        And believe me there are many traditional atheists who are very critical of Dawkins and Co.

                        Which makes me wonder why, exactly, you chose to take the intellectually lazy route of simply dismissing me as a "Dawkins clone." Cat got your brain?

                        Without being too simplistic the Middle Eastern problem is a result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the "mandated " terrotries administered by Britain and france after the Great War. Zionism and the British promise of a Jewish homeland (Balfour Declararion) unfortunately conradicted the work of Lawrence of Arabia in recruiting the Arab people . I could go on -the fact is - as in the case of Northern Ireland - "religion" is used as a cover for underlying political differences.

                        Sure, we can always point to underlying power/real estate competitions as the "fundamental" cause of war, but then it would be literally impossible to credit/blame any ideology whatsoever for any conflict, as there's always an underlying pragmatic cause.

                        Funny, then, how you presume to claim Mao & Stalin as paragons of the "atheist experiment."

                        but how am i "whitewashing theistic cultures". All nations have blighted histories.

                        Hahaha, to requote the statement of yours that I was responding to: "Indeed it is interesting that nations that have a Theist tradition such as the UK - are very accommodating to all beliefs - including atheism - which is taught in the school curriculum: yet nations that espouse atheism (China,Soviet Russia, Cambodia etc) were responsible for millions of innocent deaths."

                        First of all, you forget the religious justifications for Manifest Destiny, which directly apply to the UK. Secondly, you deign to ignore the countless theocratic and heavily religious nations which have committed countless atrocities in the name of God. The UK has been fairly tolerant of various religious beliefs during your lifetime? That's very nice for you.

                        However, as a supposedly knowledgeable scholar of history, I do wonder why you presume to brush the dark side of religious influence under the proverbial rug. Again, the best-case scenario I can imagine is that you think I'm a complete idiot.

                        As for the Anglo Saxon tradition (your counry and mine) - democratic evolution came about within Theistic culture. Magna Carta - the Oxford Provisions - Parliament - Glorious Revolutions - Bill of Rights -American Independence - British democracy. European democracy was influenced by this tradition but had more revolutionary shifts (France etc).

                        Hahaha, and Hitler "came about within Theistic culture." Correlation is not causation, dear chap. Try again.

                        Before you do so, though, you might want to read up on US history a bit more, and realize that the US Constitution was derived from Enlightenment principles (which were pointedly secular, and rooted in ancient Greek philosophy) and British common law (which predates the introduction of Christianity into Britain).

                        As regards using the US government when discussing obedience - come on Jack - this could apply anywhere.

                        Hey, I wasn't the one who started off b----ing about discussion of the US.

                        but rarely do we hear about the thousands of universites around the world (as well as humanitarian missions) - or the Vaticans astronomical observatory - or the fact that the last Pope had a keen interest in astro-physics and invited many of them to a conference to discuss modern findings (including Hawking). What does this show? Well in reiterates what i said in my last post.

                        The Church has always had a history of embracing only the facets of science which fit its own dogma and political agenda of the moment. Being from Europe, where the history comes from, you surely remember that big heliocentricity kerfuffle the Church involved itself in, don't you? Or, the bit about epicycles? Or, perhaps its vehement opposition to evolution (which it only recently quietly retracted)?

                        Come now, I may not be as devoted a scholar of history as you, but don't presume to rewrite history in betting on my ignorance.

                        Theists have nothing to worry about science - they should embrace it - as the Church does.

                        The Church only did so with great reluctance, and only when not doing so would inordinately damage their PR. You're familiar with the story of Galileo, are you not? Take a guess as to when the Church officially for almost executing him.

                        I have read Spinoza and i know that he is often regarded as a "pan-theist". Einsteins outlook was indeed similar. Spinoza was un Orthodox ( indeed he was excommunicated by his Jewish brethren) - but he did - like Einstein have a concept of a Mind behind and within the Cosmos. Many Theists see "God" in similar terms

                        Christians, if they believe in the divinity of Christ, emphatically do not. Einstein explicitly stated that he did not believe in any personified deity.

                        Although Buddhists sometimes say they are atheists - a study of both the Theravada and Mahayana traditons reveal that the concepts of "Buddha Nature" and Nirvana are things that Hindu's and Christians would understand. The ultimate goal for Hindu's is for Atman (individual soul) to merge with Brahma ( Creator and Sustainer of the Universe). The Buddhist seeks "enlightenment" so he can experience Nirvana - in the same way that Christians wish to reach God - and indeed experience Him.

                        Oh, please. Don't pretend to equivocate Buddhist states of mental enlightenment with "reaching God", a personified deity.

                        So although Buddhists sometimes say thay are atheists - they are rejecting the idea of the "Old man in the sky". So do most thinking Theists.

                        Really? Most "thinking theists" reject Christ as anything remotely supernatural?

                        This explains the "death of God " theology from the 1960's on. It was not God who was being rejected - it was an outmoded vision - whch incidentally - no serious theologian ever had from St Paul on.

                        You should really get out more. To think that modern Christendom generally rejects the concept of a personified, anthropomorphized god is simply absurd.

                        • 3 votes
                        #11.1 - Sat Sep 4, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        just4theplanet

                        Poor Jack

                        I can understand you totally not understanding "British" history - but the tiny bit of your own history!!

                        British common law? Britain has been in existence only since 1707 - although there was a common Monarch of England and Scotland from 1603. I think you mean English Common Law.! And this predates Christianity!!!!! When Augustine came to preach to the Anglo Saxons - they had only been in Britain a short time. Before them Britain was part of the Christianised Roman Empire. It is genarally agreed that our "common law" is somethong that developed after the Norman Invasion (1066) - the Normans were very devout christians. So ENGLISH Common law - does not pre date Christianity.

                        The US Constitution secular!!Oh My Metaphysical speculation! The founding fathers were either Christians or Deists - and whether you like it or not - Deisim to an atheist - might as well be Christianity , Islam or Hinduism. "IN GOD we trust" "WE hold these truths to be self evident- all men are created equal - the are endowed by their CREATOR with inalienable rights" ??????If this is Secularism - then i apologise - I didn't know secularists embraced a Creator. Whoohoo!

                        You like the phrase Manifest Destiny - never used to describe European colonial movements - it was a phrase if i remember made by a 19th century American historian to explain the movement of the US west. But what has this to do with any argument about religion or philosophy? Oh I see "go west young man - God wills it".

                        Heliocentricity, epicycles ???? What is your point? Wasn't that "science" - before they got it right? The Church just embraces theories that supports it Dogma??? Oh I see - so if a scientific theory is proven to be wrong the Church shouldn't embrace it? You mention Galillao. Most of the scientific establishment dis agreed with him - even though he was right -so the Church - like many scientists were wrong for a time. What are you saying? If the Church ingnores science - this proves how it lives in ignorance - if it embraces science - it is doing so for some sinister reason. So it seems in the world of Jack the Lad - the Church cannot win. And getting back to your Constitution - if it was left to people like Dawkins - the 1st Amendment would be better scrapped.

                        As an entertainer i have performed in many places (www.ianmccoy.com) and mixed with the rich and famous - so "getting out more" -i don't need to do. The belief in the Divinity of Christ ( and his humanity) does not anthromorphise God. If you are not a child - give up childish notions. I suppose you think that theologians see Christs Ascension as him flying up magically into the clouds.

                        As for Einstein and Buddhism - again it's a bit like Deism - to an atheist - Einstein and the Dalai Lama might just as well be Theists. Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. Buddha Nature and Nirvanna are not just "mental states" - they are mystical experiences - they are beyond nature and are eternal ( as well as being in nature). This is almost identical to the Hindu's goal - Atman discovering Brahma. And although it does not embrace a personal God - it embraces the Eternal.

                        And finally - Einstein who believed that all good science begins in wonder and trying to comprehend the great Mind -------of God.

                        ps if you're going to respond Jack - try not embarrassing yourself this time. I'll say a prayer for you - might even light a 5th candle!

                          Reply#12 - Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:44 AM EDT
                          Jack Huang

                          The US Constitution secular!!Oh My Metaphysical speculation! The founding fathers were either Christians or Deists - and whether you like it or not - Deisim to an atheist - might as well be Christianity , Islam or Hinduism. "IN GOD we trust" "WE hold these truths to be self evident- all men are created equal - the are endowed by their CREATOR with inalienable rights" ??????If this is Secularism - then i apologise - I didn't know secularists embraced a Creator. Whoohoo!

                          Man, you really know literally nothing about both Deism and atheism, eh? You should start out by reading the Wikipedia articles on both, just as a primer.

                          "In God We Trust"? Care to actually research when that phrase was adopted as the official US motto? Now, care to try to connect that to the Founding Fathers or the US Constitution again?

                          Indeed, "Creator." Isn't it curious that Jefferson, who rejected the divinity of Christ and made his own version of the Bible, excised of all divine miracles, used a rather generic "Creator", instead of "God," as would've been common practice at the time?

                          And really, "I didn't know secularists embraced a Creator"? You should pick up a dictionary at some point in the near future and look up what "secularism" means. Hint: it's not synonymous with atheism.

                          Heliocentricity, epicycles ???? What is your point? Wasn't that "science" - before they got it right? The Church just embraces theories that supports it Dogma??? Oh I see - so if a scientific theory is proven to be wrong the Church shouldn't embrace it?

                          Galileo wasn't almost executed for promulgating a scientific theory that was "proven to be wrong." Quite the contrary. Really, you should at least try to make your historical revisionism more subtle. Next thing ya know, you'll be whipping out Holocaust denial.

                          Most of the scientific establishment dis agreed with him - even though he was right -so the Church - like many scientists were wrong for a time. What are you saying? If the Church ingnores science - this proves how it lives in ignorance - if it embraces science - it is doing so for some sinister reason.

                          How many of those scientists tried to execute him? Yeah, that's what I thought.

                          The belief in the Divinity of Christ ( and his humanity) does not anthromorphise God.

                          Scripture treats God very much as an active, conscious entity with extremely human qualities. Really, have you ever even skimmed through the Bible?

                          As for Einstein and Buddhism - again it's a bit like Deism - to an atheist - Einstein and the Dalai Lama might just as well be Theists.

                          I love how you presume to speak for a group you quite obviously know s--- about. I hope you realize that many forms of Buddhism are atheist, and that you're simply pathologically lying to play to some phantom crowd. I'd hate to think that you really are this abysmally ignorant about subject matter you pretend such confidence in, though I cannot truly claim to be surprised if that were true.

                          Buddha Nature and Nirvanna are not just "mental states" - they are mystical experiences - they are beyond nature and are eternal ( as well as being in nature). This is almost identical to the Hindu's goal - Atman discovering Brahma. And although it does not embrace a personal God - it embraces the Eternal.

                          That's nice. Embracing an abstract Eternal is not mutually exclusive of atheism. Then again, I'm talking to someone who quite proudly confuses atheism with secularism, so I suppose I should lower my expectations of your comprehension of the subject matter.

                          And finally - Einstein who believed that all good science begins in wonder and trying to comprehend the great Mind -------of God.

                          Yes, and he believed in Spinoza's God, which treats the concept of "God" in a way that's quite possibly the farthest removed from Christianity possible.

                          • 1 vote
                          #12.1 - Tue Sep 7, 2010 12:01 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          just4theplanet

                          As a final post - BBC4 broadcast a programme tonight (6th Sept) about the massive growth of traditional Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) in China . What is even more interesting is that the Communist Party are actually sanctioning it!!! God works in mysterious ways - even in the largest officially atheist state!

                          Just like to thank Jack ( seriously) - although we had a go at each other (hopefully with no malice) - he is a worthy adversary!

                            Reply#13 - Mon Sep 6, 2010 5:14 PM EDT
                            just4theplanet

                            And I apologise for my underhanded comment ( don't embarrass yourself ) - not very "christian" - as i say i enjoyed our exchange.

                              Reply#14 - Mon Sep 6, 2010 5:19 PM EDT
                              Jack Huang

                              Meh, I consider your incessant historical revisionism to be a tad more underhanded than some 3rd-grade quip.

                                #14.1 - Tue Sep 7, 2010 12:02 AM EDT
                                Reply
                                just4theplanet

                                I would just like to point out that although working in journalism I am infact a highly educated historian and take pride in my knowledge of world history. Any historical information offered is based on historical fact and not revisionism.

                                I have thoroughly enjoyed our exchange and wish you nothing but goodness.

                                  Reply#15 - Thu Sep 9, 2010 8:58 AM EDT
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